Lawyers Who Learn

#57 Why Law School's Third Year Should Be Eliminated

In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, David Schnurman, CEO of Lawline, interviews Jordan Furlong, founder of Law21 and one of the legal profession's most influential voices on reform and the future of lawyering. This conversation tackles the fundamental questions facing legal education and the profession itself: Why do we have lawyers? What value do they provide? And how should we form competent practitioners in an AI-driven world? Jordan challenges the core assumptions of legal education, arguing that law school has become nothing more than an expensive credentialing institution that fails to prepare lawyers for actual practice. He advocates for eliminating the third year of law school entirely, describing it as a "massive waste of time" that adds unnecessary debt without educational value. Drawing from successful models in England and Wales, Jordan envisions a system where students can become lawyers without traditional law degrees, focusing instead on competency-based assessment and apprenticeship-style learning. The discussion explores the coming identity crisis for the legal profession as AI reshapes what lawyers do day-to-day. Jordan predicts that most traditional legal work will be automated, forcing lawyers to redefine their value proposition around human connection, judgment, and trusted guidance rather than document production and analysis. The conversation also examines unauthorized practice of law as a "protectionist scam" that AI will render obsolete, emphasizing the urgent need to shift from lawyer-centric to client-centered service delivery.

#56 From Classrooms to Courtrooms: AI Adoption Reality

In this fascinating episode of Lawyers Who Learn, David Schnurman, CEO of Lawline, interviews Conor Grennan, Chief AI Architect at NYU Stern and founder of AI Mindset, who brings a unique perspective on how AI will fundamentally reshape education and work. The conversation begins with an inspiring story about Conor taking his 16-year-old son to Nepal to teach AI to NGOs, revealing how the next generation naturally understands and adopts AI technology.
Conor challenges conventional thinking about education, discussing how the current educational system needs to evolve in the AI era. He explains why students adopt AI faster than employees - it's all about incentives - and shares his vision for reimagining classrooms where students use AI to learn faster, then teach others without technological assistance. The discussion explores the fundamental shift from information consumption to human-centered skills like public speaking and authentic communication.
The conversation delves into practical AI adoption challenges, drawing parallels between the "tapping problem" (where experts assume others understand what they're communicating) and how organizations struggle with AI implementation. Drawing from his extensive work with law firms and major corporations, Conor explains why being an early adopter is crucial, the reality of AI agents, and why understanding large language models now is essential for managing AI employees in the future. He reveals that despite the legal industry being perfectly positioned for AI transformation, adoption rates aren't necessarily higher than other industries. The episode concludes with insights on creating authentic content using AI tools like Claude and building sustainable practices in an AI-driven world.

#55 From 10,000 Doors to 25 Keynote Topics

In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, David Schnurman, CEO of Lawline, interviews Kendra Brodin, whose unique background as an attorney, social worker, and wellbeing coach led her to become CEO of Esquire Well. This conversation explores the fascinating intersection of law, social work, and entrepreneurship while diving into the real challenges of building authentic expertise and overcoming imposter syndrome.
Kendra opens up about her unconventional journey from first-generation college student to running for public office with a newborn baby, sharing how knocking on 10,000 doors taught her invaluable lessons about resilience and business development. She candidly discusses her first business failure from 2008-2011, emphasizing how that painful learning experience shaped her eventual success in relaunching Esquire Well in 2021. The conversation reveals her struggles with imposter syndrome as someone from rural Illinois navigating elite educational and professional environments.
The discussion takes a practical turn as Kendra shares insights from building a speaking business with over 25 different keynote topics, explaining how she structures presentations, works with instructional designers, and prices her services. She reveals the business psychology behind offering both high-end keynote speaking and accessible online content, demonstrating how different price points serve different needs without cannibalizing each other. David and Kendra engage in real-time coaching around overcoming barriers to building a speaking career, covering everything from content creation to closing deals while balancing entrepreneurship with motherhood and personal wellbeing.

#54 How Being Ahead in Cloud Computing Changed Everything

In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David interviews Niki Black, one of legal tech's most influential voices and employee number one at MyCase. This conversation goes beyond the typical career overview to explore the learning journey behind building authentic expertise in a rapidly evolving industry.
Niki opens up about her transition from practicing criminal and civil law to becoming a legal tech evangelist, starting with her early advocacy for cloud computing when it was considered "blasphemous" for lawyers to use. She shares how a chance encounter with Richard Susskind changed her career trajectory, leading to her first book collaboration on social media for lawyers and eventually her groundbreaking work on cloud computing. The discussion reveals how she impressed MyCase founders with her cloud expertise, and how her role has evolved through multiple acquisitions into her current position as Principal Legal Insight Strategist at AffiniPay.
The conversation explores her unique approach to building a massive LinkedIn following (206,000+ followers), launching a newsletter that gained 27,000 subscribers in just months, and her weekly Friday calls with legal tech journalists. Niki discusses how AI tools like ChatGPT have transformed her content creation process, allowing her to maintain authentic expertise while scaling her output. This episode offers valuable insights for legal professionals looking to build thought leadership, transition into legal tech, or simply understand how to leverage technology authentically in their practice.

#53 From Plane Crash to Rainmaker Coach

In this compelling episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David interviews Steve Fretzin, one of the legal industry's most respected business development coaches and author of five books on legal rainmaking. This isn't your typical business development conversation - it's a candid deep dive into the mistakes and transformative moments that shaped a coaching empire.
Steve opens up about his journey from underachiever to serial entrepreneur, starting with how a devastating 1996 plane crash became his turning point. He shares the costly lesson of running four separate companies simultaneously with $35,000 in monthly overhead, revealing how "shiny penny syndrome" nearly derailed his career before teaching him the power of focus and specialization. Listeners will discover why Steve now intentionally limits himself to just 20 clients per year despite having triple the demand, and his philosophy on what truly defines a "rainmaker."
The conversation explores Steve's innovative approach to content creation, including the fascinating story behind his AI-powered book "101 Top Rainmakers’ featuring podcast interviews, and why having 101 co-authors became a marketing masterpiece. Steve discusses his personal growth journey, the life-changing impact of "Getting Things Done" by David Allen, and how undiagnosed ADHD shaped his entrepreneurial path. This episode offers rare transparency about choosing lifestyle design over maximum profit, perfect for legal professionals, entrepreneurs dealing with scattered focus, and anyone interested in intentional business design.

#52 The Legally Speaking Story: 400 Episodes Across 6,500 Cities

In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, David Schnurman speaks with Robert Hanna, founder of KC Partners legal recruiting and host of the Legally Speaking podcast, one of the legal industry's most successful shows with nearly 400 episodes across 6,500+ cities worldwide.
Robert shares his journey from working at traditional legal recruitment firms to building his own company and becoming a digital media powerhouse. He reveals how testing content on LinkedIn in 2019 led to creating the Legally Speaking podcast as a business development tool – a strategy that transformed both his recruiting business and personal brand.
The conversation explores Robert's innovative approach to podcasting, where instead of cold calling for clients, he invites law firm partners to be guests, providing them with valuable marketing assets while building relationships that convert to business. This "give first" mentality helped him land a major sponsorship deal with Clio in 2021, just two years after launching.
Throughout the discussion, Robert shares personal insights about his grandfather's legal legacy and how it drives his mission to "build a kinder, more collaborative, future-proof legal community." He emphasizes the importance of finding your "why" – noting that "your why should make you cry" – as the foundation for persevering through business challenges.
The episode concludes with practical advice on building a personal brand, the power of creating mini-series content, and why "the magic you're looking for is in the work you're avoiding" – particularly when it comes to embracing AI and digital transformation in the legal industry.

#51 BigLaw to EdTech: How First-Week Confusion Helped Build Hotshot

In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, David Schnurman speaks with Ian Nelson, co-founder of Hotshot, a leading legal training company revolutionizing how lawyers develop their skills in the age of AI.
Ian shares his unconventional journey from BigLaw attorney at Kramer Levin to entrepreneur, revealing how a career-changing assignment to London exposed him to the UK's innovative support and legal training system. This experience inspired his transition to Practical Law Company, where he helped build and grow the U.S. operation from a handful of people in a Regus workspace to over 200 employees before its acquisition by Thomson Reuters.
The conversation explores how AI is fundamentally changing legal education and the role of the associate. With Gen AI handling lower-level tasks, firms are scrambling to upskill associates faster than ever before. Ian explains how Hotshot's content, including its new M&A simulation, allowing firms to run mock deals and transactions themselves, giving associates hands-on experience without touching actual client matters.
Throughout the discussion, Ian emphasizes the importance of high-quality content and meeting lawyers where they are – from those who've never touched ChatGPT to advanced practitioners needing sophisticated AI training. He discusses the evolution from bite-sized video content to immersive, experiential learning programs and AI learning tracks that prepare lawyers for a future where their role is increasingly strategic and advisory.
The episode concludes with both hosts sharing insights on the future of legal training, including staff development programs, accreditation services, and the ongoing challenge of creating scalable solutions for firms of all sizes in a rapidly changing landscape.

#50 Reimagining Divorce: Learning to Combine Tech, Law, and Empathy

In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, David Schnurman, CEO of Lawline, has a conversation with Erin Levine, founder of Hello Divorce - an innovative platform transforming the divorce process. Erin shares her journey from sexual abuse survivor to family law attorney to legal tech entrepreneur, revealing how her personal experience with the legal system as a teen shaped her mission to make divorce less contentious, more affordable, and more accessible.
Erin explains how a pivotal moment with a client who won custody but regretted the litigation process inspired her to create Hello Divorce as a side hustle while still managing her law firm. What began as an experiment to see if people could successfully navigate divorce with the right tools has grown into a venture-backed company that has processed over 10,000 divorces and is now available in all 50 states.
The conversation explores the challenges of building and scaling a legal tech company, including raising $7.5 million in venture capital, navigating regulatory compliance, and creating a model where both consumers and lawyers benefit. Erin discusses how she overcame imposter syndrome, the importance of networking in her entrepreneurial journey, and how she's balanced business growth with personal challenges, including a recent cancer diagnosis.
Throughout the interview, Erin reflects on what it means to reinvent her career multiple times while staying true to her mission of improving access to justice. She shares insights on effective leadership, building a legal tech company that serves both lawyers and clients, and how her approach differs from traditional divorce litigation by focusing on better outcomes through technology and human support.

#49 The Courage to Scale Back: Finding More Satisfaction with Less Work

In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, David Schnurman, CEO of Lawline, has a conversation with Laura Cowan, founder of 2-Hour Lifestyle Lawyer (2HLL) and author of the newly released book "Lifestyle Lawyer Revolution." Laura shares her fascinating journey from working as a CPA at Ernst & Young and hedge funds to making a bold career change at age 35 to attend law school.
After her mother's passing in 2015, Laura established a successful estate planning practice in New York City, growing it to a seven-figure business within three years. When COVID hit, she relocated to Rhode Island and was forced to reimagine her practice virtually. This transition led to a profound realization: she could maintain a successful practice working just a few hours a day while enjoying a more balanced lifestyle.
Laura explains how this epiphany evolved into her coaching business, 2HLL, where she now teaches other attorneys how to create and build similar virtual estate planning practices that prioritize lifestyle while still generating substantial income. Her framework, which focuses on achieving $10,000 monthly revenue through just 2-4 clients per month, currently has a waitlist and has attracted over 500 lawyers to her program.
Throughout the interview, Laura emphasizes the importance of estate planning workshops for client acquisition, the value of investing in coaching, and her philosophy that "a rising tide lifts all ships." She discusses how her approach differs from other legal coaching programs that focus solely on maximizing revenue, noting that many attorneys are seeking balance rather than just financial growth. The conversation concludes with insights about her new book, which codifies her unique approach to practicing law in the post-COVID era.

#48 SEO to CEO: Building BluShark Digital from a Law Firm's Marketing Department

In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, David Schnurman, CEO of Lawline, speaks with Seth Price, founder of Price Benowitz LLP and BluShark Digital. Seth shares his entrepreneurial journey from GW Law graduate to building a 50-lawyer firm and one of the legal industry's most successful digital marketing agencies.
Seth reveals how he and his law school friend created a "divide and conquer" partnership from day one – with his partner handling the legal work while Seth focused on marketing and operations. This unconventional arrangement allowed Seth to build the firm's digital presence when SEO was in its infancy, eventually growing his internal marketing team to seven people before spinning it off as BluShark Digital in 2016.
Throughout the conversation, Seth emphasizes the importance of following your energy – focusing on what gives you enthusiasm rather than what drains you. For Seth, this meant recognizing early that traditional legal practice wasn't his passion, while building relationships and solving problems energized him. He discusses how this philosophy has guided his business decisions, from hiring to client acquisition.
Seth also shares valuable insights about business development in the legal space, highlighting the power of conference networking over cold calling. He attends approximately 12 conferences annually, viewing them as opportunities to build relationships that may take years to develop into business. Seth explains how this approach has helped BluShark Digital grow to serve over 300 law firms nationwide.
The episode concludes with Seth's thoughts on leadership and service, including his decision to bring futurist Peter Shankman on board to help his team stay ahead of emerging trends in technology and marketing.