Lawyers Who Learn

#38 The Therapy No One Talks About: Tapping into Your True Potential

In this insightful Lawyers Who Learn episode, David Schnurman, CEO of Lawline, has a conversation with Drew Amoroso, founder of DueCourse, a lawyer development and well-being platform. After briefly summarizing Drew's impressive career journey from Reed Smith attorney to entrepreneurship, the discussion takes a deeply personal turn. Rather than focusing on Drew's career, the conversation explores topics like intentionality in daily work life, the power of therapy, and personal growth. Drew shares his seven-year experience with Emotional Freedom Technique (EFT) or "tapping," a therapeutic practice that has helped him work through limiting beliefs and negative thought patterns. The conversation delves into how we process our thoughts, the difference between coaching and therapy, and the importance of finding passion in our work. Drew discusses how his experiences have shaped DueCourse's company culture, creating spaces for honest feedback and personal development. Throughout the episode, both David and Drew reflect on what drives them personally and professionally, discussing the challenges of entrepreneurship, the search for meaningful work, and finding balance between ambition and self-acceptance. The authentic, vulnerable exchange offers listeners valuable insights into mindset, personal development, and the often unspoken mental and emotional aspects of professional success.

#37 Grasping at Straws: How Getting Shot at 19 Launched a Legal Tech Career

Join David Schnurman, CEO of Lawline, on this Lawyers Who Learn episode as he explores the remarkable path of Alistair Vigier, whose candid admission about "grasping at straws" after life-changing events reveals the uncertainty that often precedes entrepreneurial success.
Alistair's journey began with a traumatic incident at age 19 when he was shot during military training, derailing his special forces ambitions and leaving him uncertain about his future. This period led him through psychology studies and law school as he searched for a new direction, experiencing what many lawyers face - entering the profession while still figuring out their true calling.
After working in divorce law and growing a law firm's revenue from $2 million to $5 million, Alistair Vigier pursued various opportunities - creating Clearway (a lawyer review site with over 1.1 million profiles), developing an e-commerce skincare business he successfully sold, and most recently launching Caseway Legal Research. This AI-powered tool gained 2,500 users in just seven months.
Throughout the conversation, Alistair shares insights about the entrepreneurial journey, from pivoting when ideas don't work to handling negative reviews from angry lawyers. His approach to product development - gathering extensive user feedback before building - demonstrates lessons learned from previous ventures.
Now working 80+ hours weekly at his legal technology company Caseway while balancing life with a newborn, Alistair Vigier provides a realistic view of entrepreneurship. Not glamorizing success but highlighting the persistence, adaptation, and continuous learning required. His story of transformation from military crisis to legal technology innovation offers valuable perspective for anyone considering a career pivot or entrepreneurial venture in the rapidly evolving legal technology landscape.
This episode reveals how uncertainty can catalyze innovation when paired with determination and a willingness to evolve your approach continuously.

#36 The Legal Singularity: How AI Will Transform Law Practice Forever

Join David Schnurman, CEO of Lawline, on this Lawyers Who Learn episode as he explores the fascinating intersection of emerging technology and the law with James Gatto, who leads the AI practice group at Sheppard Mullin with over 120 attorneys.
In this thoughtful conversation, James shares his journey from patent attorney to pioneering legal expert in blockchain, cryptocurrency, and artificial intelligence. He reveals how he stays ahead of rapidly evolving technologies by dedicating at least 10 hours weekly to learning through podcasts, books, and hands-on experimentation with new tools.
James offers valuable insights into building cross-functional teams at AmLaw 100 firms and discusses how AI is transforming legal practice. He predicts that while AI will become a mandatory tool for law firms, it won't replace the strategic legal thinking that experienced attorneys provide. Instead, it will heighten the premium for high-value lawyering while changing how routine legal work is handled.
The conversation explores fascinating technological frontiers, including brain-computer interfaces like Neuralink, the "black box" problem in AI, and why blockchain and NFTs remain transformative technologies despite shifting public attention. James also shares personal wisdom on relationship-building, defining greatness in legal practice, and finding work-life balance.
This episode offers a compelling roadmap for attorneys who want to expand beyond their comfort zones and position themselves at the forefront of legal innovation.

#35 The Three E's of Legal Innovation: How a Knowledge Manager Became a Legal Tech Pioneer

On this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman, CEO of Lawline, interviews Nikki Shaver, co-founder of Legal Tech Hub and a recognized leader in legal innovation. With Australian and Canadian roots, Nikki brings extensive experience in knowledge management and legal technology transformation to the conversation.
Nikki shares her journey from practicing media and defamation law in Australia to becoming a director of knowledge management at a Canadian law firm, and later joining Paul Hastings in New York. In 2020, she and her husband Chris Ford founded Legal Tech Hub, a platform that addresses the gap in the market for comprehensive, agnostic information about legal technology solutions. The platform has since evolved from a directory into a substantial subscription product with deep content, market reports, and analysis.
Throughout the interview, Nikki discusses her expertise in change management within law firms, introducing her "three E's strategy" of education, engagement, and execution for driving cultural transformation. She explains how this framework helped overcome resistance to technology adoption, particularly when implementing solutions that improved efficiency but required changes in workflow.
As an adjunct professor at Cardozo Law School teaching legal technology, the business of law, and AI, Nikki emphasizes the importance of preparing law students for a rapidly changing industry. She describes how few incoming associates had any prior exposure to legal technology in their education, which motivated her to develop curriculum and teach at the law school level.
The conversation concludes with a discussion about generative AI's impact on the legal profession, with Nikki highlighting the significant productivity gains these technologies offer—sometimes as high as 75%—and how this will challenge the traditional billable hour model. She shares that clients are already pushing back on paying for junior associate time, recognizing that AI could be performing some of that work.
With five academic degrees and a published book on legal innovation, Nikki exemplifies a commitment to continuous learning, often waking up at early hours to pursue education and writing while managing her professional responsibilities.

#34 How a Frustrated Lawyer Created a Contract Revolution Used 10 Million Times a Year

On this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, Host David Schnurman, CEO of Lawline, interviews Electra Japonas, founder of The Law Boutique and Chief Legal Officer at Law Insider.
Join us as Electra shares her remarkable career journey from in-house counsel at prestigious organizations like the European Space Agency, Disney, and British American Tobacco to becoming a legal innovation pioneer. Discover how her frustration with inefficient legal processes inspired her to launch The Law Boutique and create the groundbreaking open-source One NDA initiative.
Electra discusses:
How the One NDA initiative gained widespread industry adoption
The recent acquisition of The Law Boutique by Law Insider and her transition to CLO
Her vision for the future of legal technology and AI's transformative role in the legal profession
Personal insights on balancing ambitious career goals with family life
Whether you're a legal professional looking to innovate or interested in the evolution of legal tech, this conversation offers valuable perspectives on modernizing legal practice.

#33 The Million-Dollar Check He Hasn't Cashed Yet: A Lawyer's Transformation Journey

On this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman, CEO of Lawline, interviews Robert Ingalls, founder of LawPods, a company specializing in podcast production for law firms. The two connect through mutual acquaintance Michael Michalowicz, author of Profit First.
Robert shares his journey from unhappy criminal defense attorney to successful legal tech entrepreneur. At 35, feeling trapped in his law practice and concerned about starting a family, Robert had a breakthrough after listening to a Tom Bilyeu podcast on mindset and identity. He began podcasting as a hobby, purchased equipment, and eventually found his first client when a lawyer asked for help with podcast production.
Throughout the conversation, Robert discusses his entrepreneurial philosophy of "becoming" - the process of transforming himself into someone who can overcome any challenge through relentless self-improvement. He reveals how he wrote himself a million-dollar check (inspired by Jim Carrey) as motivation, and describes his voracious approach to learning through books, podcasts, and courses.
The interview explores Robert's growth journey, including his work with Michael Michalowicz's coaching program, his recent decision to hire a personal assistant, and his ongoing struggle to overcome a scarcity mindset from his childhood. He shares insights about improving his offer structure based on Alex Hormozi's book "100 Million Dollar Offers" and his approach to pricing based on value rather than market rates.
Robert also opens up about his interest in Stoicism, his practice of recording video messages for his family in case something happens to him, and his realization that despite enjoying certain aspects of law, he was always destined for a creative career path. The conversation concludes with Robert explaining that his current focus is developing scalable processes to grow his business while maintaining quality.

#32 The Philosophy of Legal Marketing: Stoicism, Authenticity, and Podcasting Success

This episode of Lawyers Who Learn Podcast features an insightful conversation between host David Schnurman, CEO of Lawline, and guest Gyi Tsakalakis, President of AttorneySync, a legal digital marketing agency and co-host of the Lunch Hour Legal Marketing podcast.
After a brief recap of Gyi's journey from computer science major to lawyer to legal marketing entrepreneur, the discussion delves into philosophical territories, with Gyi sharing how stoicism and daily gratitude practices have transformed both his perspective and family life. The conversation explores several book recommendations that have shaped Gyi's thinking, with a recurring theme of finding harmony across different aspects of life.
A significant portion of the interview focuses on the behind-the-scenes aspects of running the Lunch Hour Legal Marketing podcast since 2018, including content creation strategies, production processes, and the importance of maintaining authenticity in the age of AI. Gyi emphasizes the value of sharing genuine personal experiences rather than relying on generic AI-generated content, particularly in professional contexts.
The discussion also touches on the evolution of LinkedIn as a platform for professional networking and knowledge sharing. Throughout the episode, both speakers demonstrate a thoughtful approach to continuous learning, knowledge sharing, and building meaningful connections in the legal profession while balancing personal growth and professional development.

#31 Powering Up Your Law Practice: Thinking, Learning, Teaching

This engaging episode of "Lawyers Who Learn" features host David Schnurman, CEO of Lawline, in conversation with Ruby Powers, founder of Powers Law Group, an immigration law firm, and Power Up Your Practice, a law practice management consulting company. The discussion reveals Ruby's unique journey from her early personal connection to immigration issues through her mother, who was born to American missionaries in Mexico, to building her successful immigration law practice that now employs 20 staff members across multiple locations. Ruby shares how living in six different countries shaped her perspective and prepared her for her career.
The heart of the conversation explores Ruby's philosophy that "thinking, learning, and teaching" are the activities that give her the most energy and fulfillment. She discusses managing her immigration practice during politically turbulent times, comparing her work to being "a MASH doctor on the battlefield" due to the urgent needs of clients facing status changes and deportation threats. Ruby openly shares her strategies for maintaining boundaries and preventing burnout when handling traumatic asylum cases, including therapy and energy work.
The interview also delves into Ruby's entrepreneurial ventures and her two books: "Build and Manage Your Successful Immigration Law Practice Without Losing Your Mind" and her recently published second book, "Power Up Your Practice." Throughout the discussion, David and Ruby connect over their shared passion for continuous learning, discussing influential books and self-improvement practices. The conversation offers listeners a window into balancing substantive legal work with business development while maintaining personal well-being in a demanding profession.

#30 Sliding Doors: How Persistence and Chance Shaped an International Legal Career

This engaging interview features Allan Rooney, founder of a Rooney Law, that specializes in corporate law. In conversation with host David Schnurman, Allan shares his remarkable journey from Scotland to becoming a successful attorney and entrepreneur in New York.
The interview explores Allan's persistence throughout his career, from his determined efforts to secure a spot at the University of Texas during law school to navigating visa challenges that eventually led him to establish his own firm in 2007. Allan reveals how his immigration situation actually became the catalyst for entrepreneurship, and how a chance elevator meeting while holding his kilt led to securing major clients in his firm's early days.
Now leading a firm of about a dozen attorneys with 18 years in business, Allan reflects candidly on the evolution of his career, the balance between professional ambition and family life with his four sons, and his thoughtful considerations about the next chapter of his professional journey. Throughout the conversation, themes of persistence, seizing opportunity, and what Allan calls "sliding doors moments" highlight how seemingly small decisions and chance encounters can dramatically shape one's path.
The discussion provides valuable insights for attorneys, entrepreneurs, and professionals navigating international careers, while offering an authentic look at the personal values and challenges that accompany professional success.

#29 Paddling Below the Surface: The Reality of Legal Leadership

In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman, CEO of Lawline, sits down with Jonathan Havens, head of the Cannabis Law Practice Group at Saul Ewing and managing partner of the firm's Baltimore office. Their wide-ranging conversation delves into the challenges and rewards of following a non-linear career path, the importance of authenticity in leadership, and the constant balance between planning and adaptability in the legal profession.
The discussion offers a refreshingly honest look at the mental and emotional aspects of being a leader in big law, with Jonathan candidly sharing his experiences with imposter syndrome, decision-making challenges, and the ongoing process of personal growth. As someone who describes himself as "paddling furiously underneath while appearing calm on the surface," Jonathan provides valuable insights into modern law firm management, the evolving cannabis legal industry, and the importance of maintaining work-life balance while pursuing professional excellence.
Throughout the conversation, Jonathan and David explore themes of personal development, leadership philosophy, and the value of continuous learning in the legal profession. The episode highlights how embracing uncertainty and being willing to take calculated risks can lead to unexpected but rewarding career opportunities. Jonathan also shares touching personal insights about family, community involvement, and the importance of individual time with his children, painting a picture of a leader who strives to balance professional achievement with personal fulfillment.
For legal professionals at any stage of their career, this episode offers valuable perspectives on building a successful practice while maintaining authenticity and pursuing personal growth. The conversation demonstrates that even accomplished leaders continue to learn, adapt, and seek ways to improve themselves and their organizations.