Lawyers Who Learn

#29 Paddling Below the Surface: The Reality of Legal Leadership

In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman, CEO of Lawline, sits down with Jonathan Havens, head of the Cannabis Law Practice Group at Saul Ewing and managing partner of the firm's Baltimore office. Their wide-ranging conversation delves into the challenges and rewards of following a non-linear career path, the importance of authenticity in leadership, and the constant balance between planning and adaptability in the legal profession.
The discussion offers a refreshingly honest look at the mental and emotional aspects of being a leader in big law, with Jonathan candidly sharing his experiences with imposter syndrome, decision-making challenges, and the ongoing process of personal growth. As someone who describes himself as "paddling furiously underneath while appearing calm on the surface," Jonathan provides valuable insights into modern law firm management, the evolving cannabis legal industry, and the importance of maintaining work-life balance while pursuing professional excellence.
Throughout the conversation, Jonathan and David explore themes of personal development, leadership philosophy, and the value of continuous learning in the legal profession. The episode highlights how embracing uncertainty and being willing to take calculated risks can lead to unexpected but rewarding career opportunities. Jonathan also shares touching personal insights about family, community involvement, and the importance of individual time with his children, painting a picture of a leader who strives to balance professional achievement with personal fulfillment.
For legal professionals at any stage of their career, this episode offers valuable perspectives on building a successful practice while maintaining authenticity and pursuing personal growth. The conversation demonstrates that even accomplished leaders continue to learn, adapt, and seek ways to improve themselves and their organizations.

#28 When the Library Burns Down: From Crisis to Legal Wellness Pioneer

In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, David Schnurman, CEO of Lawline, sits down with Prof. Rebecca Simon Green, a pioneer in lawyers and law school wellness. What begins as a discussion about their wellness consultancy, she runs with her husband Jarrett Green evolves into a profound exploration of Rebecca's remarkable journey - from a high-achieving UC Berkeley graduate and perfectionist law school dropout contemplating suicide to becoming an award-winning voice in legal education and attorney wellbeing.
The conversation takes an unexpected turn when both host and guest vulnerably share their experiences of recently losing parents, creating a powerful dialogue about mortality, legacy, and the complex relationship between parent and child. Through candid discussions about anxiety, the impact of breathing techniques, and the mysterious ways loved ones remain present after passing, they offer insights into healing and personal growth that resonate far beyond their professional expertise.
Originally planned to cover their consultancy's success and Rebecca's impactful book on law school happiness and performance, the episode instead delivers an intimate meditation on transformation, mental health, mindful parenting, and grief. Their authentic exchange demonstrates how personal struggles, when openly shared, can become a source of wisdom and connection for others in the legal community and beyond.

#27 From Basketball to the Boardroom: A Journey of Constant Transformation

In this episode of Lawyers Who Learn, David Schnurman, CEO of Lawline, has a conversation with Emerson Moore, former basketball player turned corporate lawyer, who shares his fascinating journey from Michigan basketball walk-on to General Counsel and Chief People Officer. Moore, who originally went to law school wanting to be 'the Black Jerry Maguire,' discusses his evolution through various high-profile roles, including his time at Proskauer Rose, TMP Worldwide (now Radancy), and the Brooklyn Nets.
The conversation delves deep into career transitions, work-life balance, and the importance of knowing when it's time to move on. Moore candidly shares his experience of stepping away from law temporarily, taking a transformative 13-month sabbatical, and ultimately returning to his legal roots as General Counsel at Jazz at Lincoln Center. His insights on balancing professional success with personal fulfillment, particularly his commitment to being present for his children, offer valuable lessons for lawyers at all career stages.
Throughout the episode, Moore discusses the intersection of his analytical and creative mindsets, the value of radical candor in professional relationships, and how he manages stress through meditation, CrossFit, and maintaining work-life harmony. His unique perspective as both a legal professional and HR executive provides fascinating insights into the human side of corporate law and leadership.

#26 How New York Law School is Training Tomorrow's GCs

In this engaging episode of Lawyers Who Learn, host David Schnurman sits down with Michael Pastor, who leads two groundbreaking initiatives at New York Law School: the Tricarico Institute and the Innovation Center for Law and Technology. A former General Counsel for NYC's Department of Information Technology and Telecommunications and NYC Cyber Command, Pastor shares his fascinating journey from city government to academia, where he's revolutionizing how law students prepare for in-house counsel careers.
Through candid conversation, Pastor discusses the innovative approaches he's implementing at New York Law School, including simulation-based learning and a mini-MBA program that bridges the gap between legal education and business acumen. He offers valuable insights on career transitions, leadership development, and the evolving landscape of legal technology. The discussion extends beyond traditional legal education to explore work-life balance, the impact of AI on the legal profession, and the importance of continuous learning.
Whether you're a law student, practicing attorney considering an in-house role, or legal professional interested in the intersection of law, technology, and education, this episode provides practical wisdom and inspiring perspectives on building a meaningful legal career while maintaining personal fulfillment.

#25 The Art of Legal Storytelling: From Fifty Shades to Stand-Up Comedy

This engaging episode of "Lawyers Who Learn" features a conversation between host David Schnurman and Brent, a business litigation and entertainment lawyer at Bell Nunnally in Dallas. The discussion reveals Brent's fascinating journey from ESPN production to law, highlighting how his media background has shaped his approach to legal storytelling.
The conversation explores Brent's innovative approach to continuing legal education, including his popular courses "Ethics Lessons from HBO's Succession" and "Ethics from Suits." Brent shares how he transforms traditionally dry ethics content into engaging presentations by incorporating popular culture references and storytelling techniques. He also discusses his experience working on the high-profile Fifty Shades of Grey litigation case, where he learned valuable lessons about legal storytelling from his mentor Mike Farris, who taught him to present legal arguments in clear, straightforward language that anyone could understand.
Throughout the episode, Brent offers insights into balancing a demanding legal career with personal pursuits, including his recent venture into stand-up comedy at open mic nights during business trips. He discusses the challenges of managing stress, the importance of physical exercise, and finding time for family commitments while maintaining a successful legal practice.
The discussion provides valuable lessons about the power of creative presentation in legal work, the importance of finding one's authentic style in the courtroom, and how lessons from entertainment and media can enhance legal practice. Brent's energy and positive attitude shine through as he shares practical advice for lawyers looking to break free from traditional approaches to legal practice and presentation.

#24 Why Your Role Should Be Unrecognizable in 18 Months

This podcast episode of Lawyers Who Learn features an engaging conversation between host David Schnurman, CEO of Lawline, and Jennifer Hill, CEO of ThoughtRiver, an AI-powered contract review company. The discussion delves into Hill's fascinating journey from teaching public speaking as a college freshman to becoming a lawyer and tech executive. As a longtime Lawline customer, Hill shares personal stories about how continuing legal education has impacted both her professional and personal life, including a compelling account of how a CLE course helped her advocate for her child during a school bullying incident.
The conversation explores Hill's experiences in Silicon Valley, her work supporting women entrepreneurs in New York's emerging tech scene, and her path to leading ThoughtRiver. She offers valuable insights about professional growth, including her "6-month and 18-month rule" for career development, and shares perspectives on AI's role in making legal services more accessible. The discussion is enriched by Hill's international background, as she reflects on how travel and cross-cultural experiences have shaped her outlook and leadership style.
Throughout the interview, Hill emphasizes the importance of continuous learning and embracing change, particularly in the context of AI adoption. The podcast concludes with a discussion about Lawline's future plans for AI integration and Hill's encouraging advice for lawyers looking to adapt to technological change: "Don't start with perfect. Just start." The conversation provides a rich exploration of the intersection between legal practice, technology, and lifelong learning.

#23 Raised $2.5M in 30 Days, Sold Her Company, Then Everything Changed.

Lawyers Who Learn podcast features an in-depth conversation between host David Schnurman, CEO of Lawline, and Haley Altman, a remarkable figure in legal tech who has successfully navigated multiple career transitions. The episode explores Haley's journey from aspiring doctor and cancer researcher to corporate lawyer, legal tech founder, and M&A executive.
Starting with her early pivot from medicine to law, Haley shares how her love of learning and problem-solving drove her career choices. She discusses her decade as an M&A attorney, becoming one of the fastest partners at Ice Miller, and then founding Doxly, which she later sold to Litera. The conversation provides unique insights into her transition to heading M&A at Litera, where she leveraged her extensive network in the legal tech community to complete multiple acquisitions.
Throughout the discussion, Haley opens up about balancing her professional achievements with personal life, including raising two daughters as a single parent. The conversation takes an intimate turn as both host and guest reflect on work-life balance, the importance of acknowledging one's accomplishments, and finding personal freedom alongside professional success. The episode concludes with Haley sharing her multiple potential next steps, both professionally and personally, highlighting her continued drive for growth and new experiences.

#22 Learning from Teaching 120 CLEs on Digital Evidence Secrets

In an era where your smartphone, fitness tracker, and even your doorbell could become evidence in court, understanding digital forensics has never been more crucial. This episode of Lawyers Who Learn features Brian Chase, a leading digital forensics expert from ArcherHall who reveals his strategy of using CLE courses as a powerful business development tool, delivering over 120 presentations annually.
Brian shares an inside look at developing and teaching CLE courses, particularly those focused on cutting-edge technology issues. The conversation explores several of his popular Lawline courses, including "Truth or Tech: AI-Generated Evidence," "My Ex Hacked Me: The Truth About Cyberstalking," "Your Home is Spying on You: Smart Device Data in Litigation," and "Location Data in Litigation." Through these courses, he breaks down complex technological concepts, from how Fitbit data can become crucial evidence in personal injury cases to the challenges courts face in authenticating AI-generated content.
Drawing from his experience as both a former law firm owner and current digital forensics leader, Brian provides practical insights about teaching technical topics to legal audiences, while sharing the surprisingly accessible ways attorneys can start teaching their own CLE courses.

#21 Learning to Pivot: From BigLaw Litigator to The Billing Coach

In this revealing conversation, host David Schnurman interviews Molly Kremer, "The Billing Coach," who transformed her career from BigLaw litigator to successful legal coach.
Molly shares her journey from practicing insurance defense litigation at AmLaw 100 firm Cozen O'Connor to building her unique coaching practice focused on helping attorneys improve their billing habits. She discusses discovering her niche in coaching after experiencing her own struggles with time management and billing during COVID, and how she built her practice primarily through LinkedIn content and marketing.
The conversation offers valuable insights into the business of legal coaching, including details about pricing models, client acquisition, and the shift from large law firms to boutique practices. Molly also reveals practical tips about using tools like Claude AI and Authored Up for content creation, and discusses her innovative approaches like "The Billing Hour" - a communal time for attorneys to catch up on their billing.
This episode provides a masterclass in career transition and building a successful coaching practice in the legal industry, while addressing the often taboo subject of legal billing practices.

#20 Learning Through Disruption: How Access Lex is Reshaping Legal Education

David Schnurman, CEO of Lawline speaks with Chris Chapman, CEO of Access Lex Institute, a nonprofit with a billion-dollar endowment focused on legal education. Chris details how Access Lex grew from a student loan provider to an organization that now runs multiple programs supporting law students and schools. He explains their bar prep platform Helix, which has helped reduce market prices by $1000 dollars, and discusses the significant changes coming with the 2026 Next Gen bar exam - a shift from memorization-based testing to practical legal skills assessment.
The conversation examines the structural challenges driving high law school costs, including federal loan policies and accreditation requirements. Chris shares insights on potential solutions, from expanding online education to allowing non-JD professionals to provide certain legal services. He also discusses Access Lex's MAX program, which provides financial education to law students across 200 law schools, and addresses how AI and market changes may reshape legal education and bar preparation in the coming years.
The episode covers key developments affecting the future of legal education, bar preparation, and the broader legal services market.